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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: anne on Sunday 30 October 05 19:36 GMT (UK)

Title: my elusive ancestors HELP
Post by: anne on Sunday 30 October 05 19:36 GMT (UK)
Is anyone researching the name Crumlish,if so i would love to hear from you as i am haveing problems with my William and Thomas who were both from Ireland.Anne.
Title: Re: my elusive ancestors HELP
Post by: nenny4 on Saturday 04 March 06 23:22 GMT (UK)
there appears to be a large number  of persons by the name of Crumlish around Donegal area Ire  do you have any further info
Title: Re: my elusive ancestors HELP
Post by: Christopher on Thursday 22 March 07 18:43 GMT (UK)
Is anyone researching the name Crumlish,if so i would love to hear from you as i am haveing problems with my William and Thomas who were both from Ireland.Anne.

Hello Anne,

When were William and Thomas Crumlish in Ireland?

What branch of the Christian Church have the family attended since leaving Ireland? 

As nenny4 mentioned there are a lot of people with that surname in Co. Donegal and further information no matter how irrelevenent it appears might assist in the search.

Chris.

 Re: trying again THOMAS & (WILLIAM?) CRUMLISH  (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,7157.msg746036.html#msg746036)
Title: Re: my elusive ancestors HELP
Post by: anne on Thursday 22 March 07 19:14 GMT (UK)
Hi Christopher,William was born in Ireland in c1811 and his son Thomas was Ireland 1845.I found a William Crumlish died Berwick aged 61 in 1872 and a Thomas Crumlish died Berwick aged 68 in 1913.I dont know if this is my Thomas and William yet.i do know they were catholic but what church they would have attended i dont know.Thomas married Mabel Renwick in Berwick,their 1st child Annie was born in 1869.I cant find a marriage record for Thomas and Mabel but they went on to have another 3 daughters all born Berwick.They lived mainly in Chapel/Church Street Berwick for most of their lives.Thats all i have really Christopher.I dont think anyone can help me with this one.Anne.
Title: Re: my elusive ancestors HELP
Post by: Christopher on Thursday 22 March 07 19:34 GMT (UK)
 Hello Anne,

The large number mentioned by nenny4 weren't there at the time of the Valuation in Co. Donegal in 1857. The extracts show one in Tyrone and three in Donegal ... two of them are called William. There were no others in Ireland so I'd suggest concentrating the search in Donegal.

William Crumlish, Town Parks of Strabane, Camus, Tyrone
William Crumlish, Monclink, Raymoghy, Donegal
Daniel Crumlish,  Gortnaskea, Fahan Upper, Donegal
John Crumlish,    Drummay, All Saints, Donegal

Have you contacted Martin McMenamin who is searching for the  Crumlish family in Ireland  (http://genforum.genealogy.com/crumlish/messages/1.html) on Genforum. His ancestors lived at Gortnaskea and Monreagh in the Parish of Upper Fahan, Inishowen Co. Donegal.

Chris
Title: Re: my elusive ancestors HELP
Post by: anne on Thursday 22 March 07 20:31 GMT (UK)
Hi Christopher,thankyou so much for your help.I will get in touch with this person searching the Crumlish Families and i will let you know how i get on.Thankyou again for your help.Anne.
Title: Re: my elusive ancestors HELP
Post by: Annette5717 on Tuesday 29 August 17 23:37 BST (UK)
Hello Anne,
I believe I am descended from Thomas Crumlish and Annie.  I have some information on them though am still investigating.
Annette
Title: Re: my elusive ancestors HELP
Post by: Annette Wilson on Wednesday 16 March 22 00:45 GMT (UK)
Hello Anne,
I believe I am descended from Thomas Crumlish and Annie.  I have some information on them though am still investigating.
Annette
Title: Re: my elusive ancestors HELP
Post by: sarah on Wednesday 16 March 22 10:25 GMT (UK)
Hello Annette,

Anne was last online in 2021 she may have missed your reply so I have sent her a PM, hopefully she should reply to you soon.

Regards

Sarah
Title: Re: my elusive ancestors HELP
Post by: anne on Sunday 19 February 23 10:34 GMT (UK)
Sarah just got your message please get in touch again,thankyou
Title: Re: my elusive ancestors HELP
Post by: sancti on Wednesday 22 February 23 00:22 GMT (UK)
Hi Christopher,William was born in Ireland in c1811 and his son Thomas was Ireland 1845.I found a William Crumlish died Berwick aged 61 in 1872 and a Thomas Crumlish died Berwick aged 68 in 1913.I dont know if this is my Thomas and William yet.i do know they were catholic but what church they would have attended i dont know.Thomas married Mabel Renwick in Berwick,their 1st child Annie was born in 1869.I cant find a marriage record for Thomas and Mabel but they went on to have another 3 daughters all born Berwick.They lived mainly in Chapel/Church Street Berwick for most of their lives.Thats all i have really Christopher.I dont think anyone can help me with this one.Anne.

Do the birth records of their children state the date and place of marriage for Thomas and Mabel?
Title: Re: my elusive ancestors HELP
Post by: Annette Wilson on Wednesday 22 February 23 00:35 GMT (UK)
Re Crumlish, Berwick
Sorry I can't reply to personal messages.  My family tree is on Ancestry and My heritage. Annette
Hi Christopher,William was born in Ireland in c1811 and his son Thomas was Ireland 1845.I found a William Crumlish died Berwick aged 61 in 1872 and a Thomas Crumlish died Berwick aged 68 in 1913.I dont know if this is my Thomas and William yet.i do know they were catholic but what church they would have attended i dont know.Thomas married Mabel Renwick in Berwick,their 1st child Annie was born in 1869.I cant find a marriage record for Thomas and Mabel but they went on to have another 3 daughters all born Berwick.They lived mainly in Chapel/Church Street Berwick for most of their lives.Thats all i have really Christopher.I dont think anyone can help me with this one.Anne.

Do the birth records of their children state the date and place of marriage for Thomas and Mabel?
Title: Re: my elusive ancestors HELP
Post by: anne on Wednesday 22 February 23 08:26 GMT (UK)
I couldn't find a marriage for them,maybes they didn't get married,I think mable was married to Thomas Schofield before getting together with Thomas crumlish,I kind of gave up searching for a while crumlish is a hard name to search for and being Irish didnt help either,I just dont seem to be able to get back into it for some reason,but thankyou so much for getting in touch
Title: Re: my elusive ancestors HELP
Post by: sancti on Wednesday 22 February 23 08:32 GMT (UK)
The birth records for the children should state the date and place of marriage

When/Where exactly were the children born?
Title: Re: my elusive ancestors HELP
Post by: Annette Wilson on Wednesday 22 February 23 09:15 GMT (UK)
[quote author=anne Hi, ma el was married to Schofield and after he died she marriefd/cohabited with crumlish.
Their daughter Annie married James Lyons and their son is my grandfather George Lyons.
I have a near DNA match in new York whose mother is a crumlish but we haven't been able to find the exact link, lots of coming and going to usa.  hope this is readable, I don't have my glasses on me! eithlhiii,nk=topic=101788.msg7415805#msg7415805 date=1677054418]
I couldn't find a marriage for them,maybes they didn't get married,I think mable was married to Thomas Schofield before getting together with Thomas crumlish,I kind of gave up searching for a while crumlish is a hard name to search for and being Irish didnt help either,I just dont seem to be able to get back into it for some reason,but thankyou so much for getting in touch
[/quote]
Title: Re: my elusive ancestors HELP
Post by: anne on Wednesday 22 February 23 09:33 GMT (UK)
This is all the info I have about their daughters
Annie crumlish was born berwick 1869,she married James Lyons 1887
Mary crumlish (my grt grandmother)was born in berwick 1871,she married William Morrison 1st December 1891 at duns catholic church , Mary died 16th December 1946 at 15 Lambton Avenue ,lowick, northumberland
Nellie crumlish was born in berwick 1873,no more info on her
Suzannah crumlish was in berwick 1879 and died in 1881,no more info on her
Title: Re: my elusive ancestors HELP
Post by: sancti on Wednesday 22 February 23 09:38 GMT (UK)
Do you copies of their birth records?
Title: Re: my elusive ancestors HELP
Post by: Forfarian on Wednesday 22 February 23 09:45 GMT (UK)
The birth records for the children should state the date and place of marriage
Not if they were born in Berwick. English birth certificates don't include the date or place of the parents' marriage.

Have you tried https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/ in case they were married in Ireland?
Title: Re: my elusive ancestors HELP
Post by: anne on Wednesday 22 February 23 09:54 GMT (UK)
I only have a BMD for my grt grandmother Mary,I know her mother Mabel renwick was born in alnwick,her dad Thomas was born Ireland, but all their children were born berwick ,I doubt very much that Thomas and mable were married in ireland
Title: Re: my elusive ancestors HELP
Post by: sancti on Wednesday 22 February 23 09:56 GMT (UK)
1881 census has Thomas born Ireland and Mabel born Alnwick
children recorded as born Berwickshire, Scotland
Title: Re: my elusive ancestors HELP
Post by: anne on Wednesday 22 February 23 10:01 GMT (UK)
Yes that's right,that is the info I have in my records
Title: Re: my elusive ancestors HELP
Post by: sancti on Wednesday 22 February 23 10:03 GMT (UK)
Mary's birth registered in England

Mary Crumlish Dec qtr 1871 Berwick RD
Title: Re: my elusive ancestors HELP
Post by: sancti on Wednesday 22 February 23 10:08 GMT (UK)
1861 census Berwick

William Crumlish 46   Head
Mary Crumlish 30   Wife
Thomas Crumlish   19   Son b Ireland
Mary Crumlish 8   Daughter
Title: Re: my elusive ancestors HELP
Post by: sancti on Wednesday 22 February 23 10:11 GMT (UK)
1871 census
Berwick

Thomas Crumlish   26   Head b Ireland
Mabel Crumlish 28   Wife
James Schofield 4   Son
Thomas Schofield 5   Son
Ann Crumlish 2   Daughter

Are the Schofield children, Mabel's, from a previous marriage?
Title: Re: my elusive ancestors HELP
Post by: anne on Wednesday 22 February 23 10:17 GMT (UK)
As far as I know Mabel was married to Thomas Schofield before she met Thomas crumlish,I seem to remember Thomas died,I am going to have to get my records out that I put away about 5 years ago,my memory is not as good as it used to be
Title: Re: my elusive ancestors HELP
Post by: Forfarian on Wednesday 22 February 23 10:28 GMT (UK)
There are no Cr*m*l* births registered in Berwickshire in the 19th century.

According to the GRO web site the following are registered in Alnwick
James Schofield 1862/Sep/10b/296 mmn Renwick
Thomas Schofield 1864/Dec/10b/297 mmn Renwick

and in Berwick
Mary 1869/June/10b/355 mmn Renwick
Mary 1871/Dec/10b/334 mmn Renwick
Susannah 1880/Mar/10b/380 mmn Renwick

The 1871 census lists in Chapel Street, Berwick
Thomas Crumlish, 26, born Ireland
Mabel Crumlish, wife, born Alnwick
James Schofield, son, 7, born Alnwick
Thomas Schofield, son, 5, born Alnwick
Ann Crumlish, daughter, 2 born Berwick

Neither the GRO nor FreeBMD appears to have a listing for the birth of Nellie/Hel(l)en in 1871-1875.
Title: Re: my elusive ancestors HELP
Post by: anne on Wednesday 22 February 23 10:38 GMT (UK)
That's strange why there's no entry for Nellie,she appears on census records,I just got the folder out for them,mables first husband died in 1901,I dont have a death certificate but I do for Thomas crumlish,he died 8th February 1913 at 20 chapel street berwick,his son in law James Lyons was the informant, Thomas was 68 years old when he died
Title: Re: my elusive ancestors HELP
Post by: Forfarian on Wednesday 22 February 23 10:45 GMT (UK)
That's strange why there's no entry for Nellie,she appears on census records,
Not all that strange. In the early years of statutory registration it wasn't compulsory, so her parents may just have forgotten, or may not have bothered.

Or there might be an error in the index.

Quote
I just got the folder out for them,mables first husband died in 1901,
That could certainly explain why you can't find a marriage for Thomas Crumlish to Mabel Renwick or Schofield. But how can you be certain that the Thomas Schofield who died in 1901 was Mabel's ex (or more likely estranged) husband?
Title: Re: my elusive ancestors HELP
Post by: anne on Wednesday 22 February 23 11:17 GMT (UK)
I can't find his death details but I know I did have them,what I did find in my records was the 1891 census for 26 chapel street berwick,it reads,
Henry(not Thomas) Schofield head aged 49,born alnwick
Mabel wife 46,shopkeeper,born alnwick
Mary daughter aged 18 born berwick
Nellie daughter aged 13 born berwick
Title: Re: my elusive ancestors HELP
Post by: sancti on Wednesday 22 February 23 11:28 GMT (UK)
1891 census has Thomas Crumlish living alone
Title: Re: my elusive ancestors HELP
Post by: sancti on Wednesday 22 February 23 11:30 GMT (UK)
1911 census has Thomas born in Londonderry

Name:   Thomas Crumlish
Age in 1911:   66
Estimated Birth Year:   abt 1845
Relation to Head:   Head
Gender:   Male
Birth Place:   Londonderry, Ireland
Civil Parish:   Berwick upon Tweed
Title: Re: my elusive ancestors HELP
Post by: anne on Wednesday 22 February 23 11:46 GMT (UK)
Yes that's him,I have that info too
Title: Re: my elusive ancestors HELP
Post by: sancti on Wednesday 22 February 23 12:07 GMT (UK)
Looking at the ages on the 1861 census, Mary cannot be the mother of Thomas, so a 2nd marriage for William

Irish records have this possible baptism for Thomas

Name:   Thomas Crumlish   Date of Birth:   
        Date of Baptism:   04-Aug-1844
Address:      Parish/District:   LONG TOWER
County   Co. Derry
Denomination:   Roman Catholic
Father:   William Crumlish   Mother:   Unity Coyle
Occupation:         
Sponsor 1 /
Informant 1:   Thomas Shiels
Sponsor 2 /
Informant 2:   Ann Doherty
Title: Re: my elusive ancestors HELP
Post by: Forfarian on Wednesday 22 February 23 12:13 GMT (UK)
So Mabel left Thomas Crumlish went back to Henry/Thomas Schofield some time between 1881 and 1891?

If Nellie was aged 13 in 1891, she would have been born in 1877/1878, not 1873.

There is a birth of Ellen Schofield, Berwick 1877/Jun/10b/426 mmn Renwick.

I think you need to see some of those birth certificates!
Title: Re: my elusive ancestors HELP
Post by: Millmoor on Wednesday 22 February 23 12:41 GMT (UK)
Illustrated Berwick Journal 30 July 1859 has this irregular marriage:

At Lamberton Toll, July 27, Henry Schofield, three weeks resident in Glasgow, to Mabel Renwick, both of Alnwick.

William
Title: Re: my elusive ancestors HELP
Post by: anne on Wednesday 22 February 23 17:27 GMT (UK)
Thankyou both so much for this info that I didn't have, I will look into this a bit further,thankyou both again for your help