RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: Keith Sherwood on Saturday 29 October 05 11:11 BST (UK)
-
Hi, Everyone,
I'm not entirely sure whether the term "Gipsy" is politically correct nowadays, but nevertheless I have come across a couple of examples in Cambridgeshire where a "gipsy" child has apparently taken the mother's surname as their final name, rather than the father's. Have I misinterpreted matters, or is/was this indeed the custom...
Keith
-
Hi Keith
I don't know whether it is a custom but I have a family of gipsy's in my tree that seem to keep the mother's maiden name as a double barrel and her grandchildren seemed to be called by her maiden name regardless of their parents surname.
Extremely confusing and complicated. Especially as the maiden name was Lovekin and obviously half the family couldn't read or write and it became Luffkin!
Kerry
-
you could try asking on this site
http://www.rtfhs.org.uk/
-
Kerryb,
Very interesting to read what you put about this topic...
and Mc8, I'll have a good look on the site you kindly provide.
Very best wishes,
keith
-
I can't speak from personal experience, but I came across a family I was looking up for a friend and found a similar situation, the father was also missing despite the mother being noted as "M"arried, it was believed that she still kept her maiden name.
The occupations were noted as travellers, hawkers and something to do with brush makers as I recall it. To date no marriage has been found for the mother and the person believed to be the father and my romantic suggestion was that their marriage ceremony was of the "jumping over the brush" kind by the side of a campfire followed by a good old shindig.
Mary
-
Mary
Now there is an idea, I wonder if that is how my couple got married because I have looked under all 3 possible names and I just can't find a marriage anywhere. The mother was Emily Stanford, the father appeared to be John Smith. Some children are called Lovekin?! and my gr gr grandmother was known as Helena Lorraine Lovekin Stanford Smith!!!!
I have even wondered whether there was a first marriage of Emily to a Lovekin but I am still going round and round and round!!
Kerry
-
My Romany gt Grandparents never married and all their children were named after the mother. She then left her partner, went with his brother and had a couple more children and again gave them her name. They regarded themselves as married by having the children.
Also I know of children being passed around the family, when a parent died, or gave birth quite young. It worked well and kept children within the family as they didn't like interference from outsiders.
Jenny
-
Jenny,
Thanks so much for your own personal input. This is an area of family history of which I am ashamed to say I knew next to nothing. I'm finding the whole topic fascinating, and I'm sure there'll be other people chipping in with their own experiences of this as the days go by. The more I'm learning about these Romany family customs, the more I like them...!
Keith
The Romany and Traveller family History website that Mc8 gave us the link to earlier, is an interesting visit, by the way...
-
There are occasions where after marriage the man takes the wife's name in Romany families - from what I've read.
Romanies have/had a very dynastic attitude to family, so if the woman was from a noble line then I believe the man would be more than happy to take that name.
I've done a wee bit of research on this as my Lowthers I believe are from a gypsy line.
Pam
;D
-
here's another useful link which may save some time with census hunting
http://www.thegalloper.com/Family/fairgroundfamilies.htm
-
Reference to the message above. The Galloper is very useful, some of my family called Stone were on there under Van People, my gg grandparents and their children.
I also remember many years ago reading a book by Gordon Sylvester Boswell, who wrote about his life on the road. Really interesting and even mentions him going to Eastwood in Essex where my family ended up, and one of his siblings being buried in the family churchyard.
I believe his son has a Romany Museum in Lincolnshire visit the website below.
www.boswell-romany-museum.com
Jenny
-
Hi, Jenny and Mc8,
What a brilliant website that it is - I wonder how many people with Romany/Gipsy/Traveller ancestors realise that it exists...
Keith
When I used to go hop-picking in Kent in the 1960's there were usually a couple of families of travellers working on each hop-machine; the names I remember were SMART and SIDDALL (not sure of spelling), and the SMITH's...
They gave the hopfields and campfires in the evening a wonderful injection of colour...
Keith
-
Research into my own family has shown that the female line was often the more dominant ie. men "marrying" into the family travelled and settled with the wife's parents and siblings.
The following is another interesting site - particularly for those whose Romany ancestors had Kentish connections:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/kent/romany_roots/
Casalguidi
-
Casalguidi,
When I started this thread I somehow imagined that someone must have enquired about this topic before, or at least that there might be a special section devoted to Gipsy family history. I imagine you, more than anyone, would know if this is the case...
Do you think that there ought to be created such a slot on Rootschat, as the links produced by several people have been excellent ones, but might not be yet known to those wanting to research their Gipsy/Romany/Traveller ancestors on here. (Much more difficult of course, with the constant movement and migration)
Very best wishes,
keith
-
Hi Keith!
Here is a fascinating site - I spent hours here! - when I was hoping my Coopers were gypsies - I was REALLY disappointed when they weren't!! it's still a wonderfully informative site ... !
http://www.geocities.com/~patrin/
Annie
Liverpool University has a great gypsy collection too!
-
Annie,
This is excellent! Thanks very much for that...
Keith
-
Hi, I have been chasing my Romany family for some time. I have found children with surnames of both parents.
Have you looked at this site; Romany and Traveller Family History Society @ http://www.rtfhs.org.uk/
Another good site is Passing Through @ http://www.passing-through.co.uk/
Good luck Rovert
-
My ancestor did, thank God because she never married her 'husband'. Matilda Elliott Roberts, anyone?
-
Hi Rebekahm
Do you mean this family?
1871
In a caravan, North Trade Road, Battle, Sussex
Samson ROBERTS head 26 travelling hawker b.not known
Matilda ELLIOTT 26 b.Cupthorn Sussex
Henry ROBERTS son 8 b.Kent
Samson son 5 b.Hailsham Sussex
Mary A dau 4 b.Hailsham Sussex
Celia dau 2 b.Heathfield
Mary BRAZZEEL 16 b.East Grinstead Sussex
RG10/1036 folio 41 page 8
The daughter Mary Ann was baptised Tenterden, Kent 1866 and later married James RANSLEY of Kent.
Casalguidi :)
-
Yes thats them, Matilda is my direct blood ancestor. I have Mary Ann's marriage but thankyou for thinking of me! Im trying to establish who Matildas parents were, she died in 1881.
-
This is the reason we are having so much trouble with finding our rellies.
Only they cannot seem to make up their mind which one to choose. They have only been found togehter on the 1861 census.
The names are Nehemiah Ayres (abt 1826 ) and Susan Whitlock MN Norris (abt 1828)
They also seem to like the name Turner!!!
They are also known to change their first names. They had their children in Hampshire, Berkshire and Whiltshire. They eight children that we can find.
However we seem to have hit a brick wall. Did they ever marry?
Best of luck Tina
-
poly1963
I am also from Stone Family, essex. feel free to message me.
-
hi, keith no probs with that name,we call our selfs travellers,but its confusing,what with new age. travellers irish,romanians etc, any way you may know all this now, but some times a gypsy woman would marry a gorgio man,/non gypsy. and would take or use her name.it was better for the children.to be known by a traveller name.rob g
-
Yes thats them, Matilda is my direct blood ancestor. I have Mary Ann's marriage but thankyou for thinking of me! Im trying to establish who Matildas parents were, she died in 1881.
is the father's name not given on the marriage cert?
Monique
-
MC8, Matilda didnt have a marriage cert, most likely didnt marry. Its Matilda's parentage Im after.
-
Hi, Everyone,
Good to see this thread jerking back to life after a long pause, there's obviousy plenty of mileage in it yet!
Cambridgeshire Parish Records are full of the names of families who briefly stayed, had their children baptised, or married, then moved on. Conscientious vicars do tend to note where the individuals came from previously, particularly if it was from another county - I've been able to help one or two Rootschatters recently with such details...
Regards, keith
-
Hi Everyone,
i am from a gypsy family and am also trying to trace my ancesters, I know my Grandmother was Florence Emily stanford and her husband was George stanford they lived in the tunbridge wells area and george was a hawker. Kerry i think we may have some kind of connection??
-
Hi, Hwilson, and welcome to Rootschat!
Perhaps if you post your query on the Kent boards on this website, then someone may have details of your family in a parish in the Tunbridge Wells area...
Very best wishes, keith
...and Kerryb, where are you? It looks as though you share the STANFORD name...
-
Hi all
From what I have found so far, and that is not very much at all, these ancestors of mine are very elusive, the Stanfords came from Horsham, West Sussex. Of course there may be a connection but mine are very early 1800s. What I have managed to find is that Helena's mother Emily appears to have been a Stanford and might have been daughter to Isaac from Horsham but the info doesn't quite fit together somehow.
Kerry