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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Midlothian => Topic started by: rozee on Thursday 27 October 05 22:34 BST (UK)
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Trying to find Thomas Smith reported to being born in North Leith in 1809. Cannot find him but can find a Thomas Smith in 1808, however family myth was that his surname was really McKenzie. He married on 21 May 1830 and joined the army in Kent in England in October 1830. Cannot find marriage. Committed forgery in 1834 and was transported to Oz. Does anyone think that this Thomas belongs in your family - either Smith or McKenzie?
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Hya rozee, your Thomas born 1809 could possibly be the same one born 1808, a year out does not make much difference unless you are absolutely positive of the birth year. You say he married on 21 May 1830, but you can't find a marriage certificate, how do you know he married on this date? Could he have married in England? Try looking at 1837 on line, you can search for a MC for him there.http://www.1837online.com What about hs army record, try the public records office they should have details of it there and point you in the right direction to purchase them. Sorry for all the questions, Gen10
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Dear Gen10, Thomas Smith's army record claimed he was married 21may1830. He discharged from the army 1834 for forgery and transported to Australia for 14 years. He left behind his wife and 2 boys. I can trace most of his family in Aust as he remarried a London convict and had many children. It is his parents, siblings and wife and children he left behind I am desperately trying to find. Have tried everywhere for the wedding. Not on 1837 as it is too early and not on Scotland website either. I have actual copies of the army records so I can verify those are the dates he gave (whether he told the truth or not cannot tell). He also gave North Leith as his birthplace. Where can I go from here?
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Hya Rozee,sorry for not getting back to you but work commitments had to come first. Can I ask you who Thomas married? Have you tried looking for a death cert for his first wife and MC for his two children? The Mormon site holds most of the records, you could try finding your nearest LDS office and ordering the parish records to view in their offices. Can't think of anything else to suggest.
Lex
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thanks for the suggestions but do not know the christian name of first wife or children and cannot find marriage for that date. since I last wrote have got his death cert as well as birth cert of a son and daughter to 2nd wife here in Oz and the country of birth for Thomas is listed as Ireland. as he was a convict think that he may have lied about his birthplace when joining British army so may pursue the irish connection instead. his religion was listed as C of E so think maybe the family moved from Ireland to North Leith and maybe thought that since he was in Oz might as well tell the truth about country of birth. He definitely claimed he was born in North Leith in his army record but ....... what a mystery. Are there any smiths in North Leith who came from ireland before say 1830 and have a missing son called Thomas - that may be another line of enquiry.
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Sorry Gen10, forgot to say that once someone was transported to Australia, any previous marriage in the UK was dissolved as they were transported for 7 or 14 years so therefore free to marry here. Thomas did not wait long to remarry - not 7 years.
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This Thomas Smith/ McKenzie is one of my G-G-G-Fathers. Just wondering whether anybody has managed to track down the elusive wife and 2 boys back in the UK?
Cheers, Kate.
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Kate, Thomas Smith is my husband's gr gr grandfather and he was born on Ireland. He states that on the birth certificates of his younger children. He obviously lied when he joined the British Army (I have a copy of his records whilst in the Army and also his conviction records for forgery). He probably married when he left Ireland for Scotland or more probably when in England. Trying to locate any records in Ireland would almost be impossible as we do not know Thomas's real surname and it is most probably not Smith. He was an educated man and family myth was that he left Ireland because he shamed his family by causing some misdemeanour. How are you connected to Thomas and Mary?
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Hi Rozee,
The elusive Thomas Smith/ McKenzie is also my gr gr great grandfather and Mary my gr gr gr grand mother.
This is where I fit into the HUGE Family Tree (more like a forest):
Thomas Smith/ McKenzie Married wife No. 2 Mary Harriet Birdsill
Agnes Smith (their daughter) Married Joseph Argent
Theodore William Agent (their son) Married Muriel Rose Long
My Grandfather (their son) (Living) Married My Grandmother (Deceased)
My Mother (their daughter) (Living) Married My Father
Me, Kate (Living... obversely) QLD Australia
I would love a copy of his British Army records and his conviction records. If you are happy to give them, i can post a temporary email address you can send them to.
Any hints as to what the misdemeanor was that shamed his family back in Ireland?
Do you have or know of anyplace that has a picture of Thomas or Mary, all i can go on is the detailed description give when were busted.
Thomas Smith:
1834 Age: 27
Complexion: Ruddy/Speckled: Hair Brown: Eyes Blue: Small scar inside forefinger of right hand
Mary Harriet Birdsill:
1836 Age: 19
5' 2 1/2" In Height, Complexion: Pale And Pock-pitted, Dark Brown Hair And Hazel Eyes. Scar At Back Of Forefinger Of Left Hand, Scar Inside Right Wrist.
Many Thanks,
Kate
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Dear Kate, I already have your family on my tree. I have Agnes's birth cert too or her transcription - I cannot remember which. I have deleted my tree on Ancestry.com.au as there were too many errors on my own English side although the Smith side was quite accurate although what I have on my database is more complete that what was posted on Ancestry. You will have to be patient for Thomas's and Mary's documents as they are packed for removal to Tasmania. I have transcriptions of their trials etc too. We are moving there in a few months. I will scan them and send them to you. I will contact you again. I don't mind giving you an email address - I have quite a few. Did you know that Mary was engaged to someone else in Port Macquarie before she married Thomas. We have absolutely nothing about Thomas whilst living in Ireland. Family rumour about Thomas was that he drowned at Nambucca the day before he was to travel to Sydney to go back to Ireland to claim his inheritance but that is only rumour. There are no portraits of Thomas or Mary but I do also have a copy of his diary that he kept. I don't know where the original is but someone copied it out by hand and I have a photocopy of that. You will have to wait for that too as it is packed away. Thomas, as you probably know, forged payslips and was caught drinking in the local pub with the proceeds and Mary stole a shawl from what I can remember. I will try to send you a private message on Rootschat with one of my email addresses.
regards, Rozee
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Hi, I think I may be related to Thomas McKenzie Smith and Mary Harriet Birdsill Smith, too.
Their daughter Sarah married Ashford Thomas Willis; they had 3 children.
I am a decendant of Emma, my father's mother's mother.
Willis was massacred in New Guinea in about 1878. Sarah wrote to the Sydney Morning Herald about it, after she was married in 1881 or 1882 to William Lyons.
Sarah's youngest brother was named Kenneth McKenzie. Sarah named her 4th child Joseph McKenzie. I only read about all this yesterday. See Trove for SMH, tagged Thomas Smith, Willis, Lyons.
Thomas Smith drowned (see Trove) in the sea at Trial Bay NSW during floods in January one year. Later, Mrs Thomas Smith is listed as having lost her house in floods in August, same year. By that time she had 8 children.
I have seen a few people mention the McKenzie connection, so far. See Whaite Family Tree.
I have no documents at all but if you feel like contacting me I'd love it. Cheers.
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Hi,
I love getting in contact with distant famiy.
I descend from another of Thomas and Mary's daughters, Agnes (1861 – 1953). Agnes married a Joseph McKenzie Argent (what are the chances his middle name was going to be Mc'Kenzie) their son Theodore b. 1851 married Muriel Rose Long together they had several children one being my grandfather.
Do you have any idea were the name 'HOLT' came from?? (Thomas and Mary son William Holt SMITH 1846 – 1926)
(I am typing my reply/ questions in purple.)
Hi, I think I may be related to Thomas McKenzie Smith and Mary Harriet Birdsill Smith, too.
Their daughter Sarah married Ashford Thomas Willis; they had 3 children.
I am a descendant of Emma, my father's mother's mother.
Willis was massacred in New Guinea in about 1878. Sarah wrote to the Sydney Morning Herald about it, after she was married in 1881 or 1882 to William Lyons. Thanks for the news paper reference. My grandfather had told me that Ashford was killed by native in PNG but it's nice to get the full version of events.
Sarah's youngest brother was named Kenneth McKenzie. Sarah named her 4th child Joseph McKenzie. I only read about all this yesterday. See Trove for SMH, tagged Thomas Smith, Willis, Lyons.
Thomas Smith drowned (see Trove) in the sea at Trial Bay NSW during floods in January one year. Family myth is he died the day before he was to return to travel to Sydney to return to Ireland and claim his family inheritance. Only family rumor, can't actually prove it. Later, Mrs. Thomas Smith is listed as having lost her house in floods in August, same year. By that time she had 8 children. Didn't know that, Thanks.
I have seen a few people mention the McKenzie connection, so far. See Whaite Family Tree. Can't find it. Can you please send me the web address.
I have no documents at all but if you feel like contacting me I'd love it. Cheers.
If you would like to know more, (I'd like to swap info) please send me a personal message. I prefer communicating in private email.
Hear from you soon,
K8
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Message sent.
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K8 worked it out, personal message sent to you.
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Hello, I have Thomas Smith & Mary Harriet Birdsill in my Family; they are my 3 x g/Grandparents.
Does anyone out there know who Thomas's 1st wife was, I am of the belief that he married her on 21 May 1830, they had 2 sons. I have not found any marriage that matches that date in Kent, Scotland or Ireland...But my search parameters are rather limited. If anyone could help me I'd greatly appreciate it.
Cheers, Anthony "Tonze" Childs [formally, GOSPER]
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Anthony, Mary would have been only 13 if she married in 1830. Do you mean 1840 with Jno Edwards, when she was in Australia? See the first page of this thread, as she may have been just engaged. She would have been 18 when she came to Australia. I'm not sure what the legal age of marriage was, with or without the parents' permission.
The mystery continues! Hope Rozee has some information when she unpacks her treasures!
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Hi ya, Thanks for ya reply...But Mary, was Thomas's 2nd wife!
It's his 1st wife & 2 sons, I am after info on...That marriage was on 21 May 1830 in Kent, apparently?
I am also lead to believe that he joined the Army in Kent, the end of 1830. I am at present trying to get a copy of his actual enlistment papers, But so far they have not arrived.
These papers just may give his 1st wife's actual name, as next of kin?? One can only hope...
Shall write you, once I have them...Cheers Anthony
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Hi Anthony,
If Mary was born in 1817 and if she married in 1830, how old was she at marriage? Only 13? What a mystery this story is.
Hope you find some answers soon.
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Nagh....Thomas & Mary married on 25 Nov 1842 at St. Thomas’s Church of England, Port Macquarie, New South Wales, Australia.
Mary was his 2nd wife!
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ah, now I understand, sorry. I thought you meant Mary was married in 1830 but you said Thomas, which I misunderstood. Thanks.